Getting Holistic with ROAS

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9

Shay Yosifon (vice president of marketing at Beach Bum Games - card and board games) talks about advertising spend and investing in the creative process.

Source:
Getting Holistic with ROAS
(no direct link to watch/listen)
(direct link to watch/listen)
Type:
Podcast
Publication date:
April 13, 2020
Added to the Vault on:
April 17, 2020
These insights were shared through the free Growth Gems newsletter.
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💎 #
1

Not all channels are created equally and you can't optimize different channels the same way: audio campaign, video campaign, rewarded video campaign, Facebook campaign. So make sure you build different LTV/ROAS curves for channels that bring users of different kinds. 

07:58
💎 #
2

Even within campaigns you have different audiences/groups (e.g. ROAS target vs. CPI target) and you can't expect to get the same quality of players for each one so the overall graph shouldn't be the same.  

08:23
💎 #
3

A lot of new channels they test initially don't hold up to Facebook or Google campaigns. But when looking deeper (e.g. Day 90-180-365) you see that the curve is completely different and sometimes beats a LAL1%. 

09:28
💎 #
4

Try to make sure that when you test you don't just look at D7 ROAS. Test longer and split budget for 2-3 months or test/pause for 30-60 days and then restart the campaign. It's important to look back to assess again. 

10:40
💎 #
5

Look at the user funnel to identify 2-3 events that indicates who are the users that like their games. Things that show commitment that you can find early on. For example: playing a "special table", joining a clan, etc.  

16:15
💎 #
6

You need to tell the algorithms what to optimize towards so you have to understand what the user journey beyond FTD. What events can I optimize for that will generate higher value? 

21:30
💎 #
7

For the creative process they built a model: ideation → planning → production → learning and loops. Each one of them is its own process.  

23:08
💎 #
8

Involve product, CRM and the whole marketing staff to see what works throughout the app. Take everything people talk about and build different concepts out of brainstorming sessions that go into a production plan. 

23:26
💎 #
9

If you have something that is a killer concept, iterate on it (color scheme for example). It might lead to bigger increases than a new concept. 

24:20
The "gems" from this resource are only available to premium members.
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  • Define your preferred categories and receive new relevant gems directly in your inbox
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Upgrade Your Plan
💎 #
1

Not all channels are created equally and you can't optimize different channels the same way: audio campaign, video campaign, rewarded video campaign, Facebook campaign. So make sure you build different LTV/ROAS curves for channels that bring users of different kinds. 

07:58
💎 #
2

Even within campaigns you have different audiences/groups (e.g. ROAS target vs. CPI target) and you can't expect to get the same quality of players for each one so the overall graph shouldn't be the same.  

08:23
💎 #
3

A lot of new channels they test initially don't hold up to Facebook or Google campaigns. But when looking deeper (e.g. Day 90-180-365) you see that the curve is completely different and sometimes beats a LAL1%. 

09:28
💎 #
4

Try to make sure that when you test you don't just look at D7 ROAS. Test longer and split budget for 2-3 months or test/pause for 30-60 days and then restart the campaign. It's important to look back to assess again. 

10:40
💎 #
5

Look at the user funnel to identify 2-3 events that indicates who are the users that like their games. Things that show commitment that you can find early on. For example: playing a "special table", joining a clan, etc.  

16:15
💎 #
6

You need to tell the algorithms what to optimize towards so you have to understand what the user journey beyond FTD. What events can I optimize for that will generate higher value? 

21:30
💎 #
7

For the creative process they built a model: ideation → planning → production → learning and loops. Each one of them is its own process.  

23:08
💎 #
8

Involve product, CRM and the whole marketing staff to see what works throughout the app. Take everything people talk about and build different concepts out of brainstorming sessions that go into a production plan. 

23:26
💎 #
9

If you have something that is a killer concept, iterate on it (color scheme for example). It might lead to bigger increases than a new concept. 

24:20
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💎 #
1

Not all channels are created equally and you can't optimize different channels the same way: audio campaign, video campaign, rewarded video campaign, Facebook campaign. So make sure you build different LTV/ROAS curves for channels that bring users of different kinds. 

07:58
💎 #
2

Even within campaigns you have different audiences/groups (e.g. ROAS target vs. CPI target) and you can't expect to get the same quality of players for each one so the overall graph shouldn't be the same.  

08:23
💎 #
3

A lot of new channels they test initially don't hold up to Facebook or Google campaigns. But when looking deeper (e.g. Day 90-180-365) you see that the curve is completely different and sometimes beats a LAL1%. 

09:28
💎 #
4

Try to make sure that when you test you don't just look at D7 ROAS. Test longer and split budget for 2-3 months or test/pause for 30-60 days and then restart the campaign. It's important to look back to assess again. 

10:40
💎 #
5

Look at the user funnel to identify 2-3 events that indicates who are the users that like their games. Things that show commitment that you can find early on. For example: playing a "special table", joining a clan, etc.  

16:15
💎 #
6

You need to tell the algorithms what to optimize towards so you have to understand what the user journey beyond FTD. What events can I optimize for that will generate higher value? 

21:30
💎 #
7

For the creative process they built a model: ideation → planning → production → learning and loops. Each one of them is its own process.  

23:08
💎 #
8

Involve product, CRM and the whole marketing staff to see what works throughout the app. Take everything people talk about and build different concepts out of brainstorming sessions that go into a production plan. 

23:26
💎 #
9

If you have something that is a killer concept, iterate on it (color scheme for example). It might lead to bigger increases than a new concept. 

24:20
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Beach bum games creates mobile games based on "old/nostalgic" card and board games (Backgammon, Spades, Rummy).

Creatives for "known/nostalgic" games

They have to think about who they are trying to approach :

  • Players who know what backgammon/spade is: very easy, easier to showcase why their games are great. It's more a matter of doing this better than competition.
  • Players who don't know the initial game: try to convey something different in the creative by showing what they can expect but also why it's different.


Good creatives for people that don't know the games

A good one would be "Learn how to play Backgammon in 30 seconds". It helps to get people to think they can learn the game fast, and then it's a matter of making sure that the onboarding experience is good enough for people that don't know the rules to enjoy it.


D7 ROAS and measuring performance

Try to make sure the money they invest in acquisition doesn't go to waste. The industry needs to react fast but in a lot of gaming companies the long term value is determined within 3-6-9-18 months so you can't see straight away and optimize directly.


They build generic models that predict LTV and ROAS curves. Example: need to be at 100% in 12 months → 50% in 6 months → 10% in 1 month → 5% day 7. They build that model and optimize towards it.


[💎@07:58] Not all channels are created equally and you can't optimize different channels the same way: audio campaign, video campaign, rewarded video campaign, Facebook campaign. So make sure you build different LTV/ROAS curves for channels that bring users of different kinds.


[💎@08:23] Even within campaigns you have different audiences/groups (e.g. ROAS target vs. CPI target) and you can't expect to get the same quality of players for each one so the overall graph shouldn't be the same.


Looking back at tested channels to reinvestigate performance

[💎@09:28] A lot of new channels they test initially don't hold up to Facebook or Google campaigns. But when looking deeper (e.g. Day 90-180-365) you see that the curve is completely different and sometimes beats a LAL1%.


[💎@10:40] Try to make sure that when you test you don't just look at D7 ROAS. Test longer and split budget for 2-3 months or test/pause for 30-60 days and then restart the campaign. It's important to look back to assess again.


Beach bum try to make sure every 3 to 6 months to look back at everything they've done to see what's going on today. ROI might be low but they could notice a lot of "single depositors" and build with product or the source to create a campaign that has more impact.


Out of the tests paused only a fraction of them are restarted and they became staples in their portfolio.


Some sources look great at the beginning but when looking at the long term cohorts they might end up lagging behind.


Other benchmarks/metrics to look at

Players that bring good ROAS are typically those that spend a lot of time in the app. If you are able to make more users go deeper down the funnel you can expect higher ROI long term.


Retention is therefore a key metric as well.


[💎@16:15] Look at the user funnel to identify 2-3 events that indicates who are the users that like their games. Things that show commitment that you can find early on. For example: playing a "special table", joining a clan, etc.


Virality factor is another thing they look at: how many people they invite.


Shay would rather have a source that brings in a lot of highly engaged users with a high FTD count (time in the app) but at a lower ROI (D7-14) because he knows that in the long run that would generate more revenue for the company. They might also generate more positive reviews which can help as well.


Automation and impact for performance marketers

It enables you to focus on what marketing truly is. Now you can think about who you are targeting and how you are showing your message.

  1. Creatives have become huge: video, thumbnail, etc. You can now truly drill down on the creative part.
  2. [💎@21:30] You need to tell the algorithms what to optimize towards so you have to understand what the user journey beyond FTD. What events can I optimize for that will generate higher value?


Creative process

Really invest in creatives, both in the production and the process itself.

[💎@23:08] For the creative process they built a model: ideation → planning → production → learning and loops. Each one of them is its own process.

[💎@23:26] Involve product, CRM and the whole marketing staff to see what works throughout the app. Take everything people talk about and build different concepts out of brainstorming sessions that go into a production plan.


They have a few places where they test creatives to determine what they move forward with.


[💎@24:20] If you have something that is a killer concept, iterate on it (color scheme for example). It might lead to bigger increases than a new concept.

If you do not try these small iterative changes, you will not learn as much about your users.


  1. Always test new concepts
  2. Iterate on what works best


Testing creatives

Considerations:

  • How did that affect my CTR
  • How did that affect my CVR

But sometimes a longer look at things you realize that some creatives inspire different people and behaviors.


The notes from this resource are only available to premium members.
↘ At this point, you know what to do ↙
Upgrade Your Plan

Beach bum games creates mobile games based on "old/nostalgic" card and board games (Backgammon, Spades, Rummy).

Creatives for "known/nostalgic" games

They have to think about who they are trying to approach :

  • Players who know what backgammon/spade is: very easy, easier to showcase why their games are great. It's more a matter of doing this better than competition.
  • Players who don't know the initial game: try to convey something different in the creative by showing what they can expect but also why it's different.


Good creatives for people that don't know the games

A good one would be "Learn how to play Backgammon in 30 seconds". It helps to get people to think they can learn the game fast, and then it's a matter of making sure that the onboarding experience is good enough for people that don't know the rules to enjoy it.


D7 ROAS and measuring performance

Try to make sure the money they invest in acquisition doesn't go to waste. The industry needs to react fast but in a lot of gaming companies the long term value is determined within 3-6-9-18 months so you can't see straight away and optimize directly.


They build generic models that predict LTV and ROAS curves. Example: need to be at 100% in 12 months → 50% in 6 months → 10% in 1 month → 5% day 7. They build that model and optimize towards it.


[💎@07:58] Not all channels are created equally and you can't optimize different channels the same way: audio campaign, video campaign, rewarded video campaign, Facebook campaign. So make sure you build different LTV/ROAS curves for channels that bring users of different kinds.


[💎@08:23] Even within campaigns you have different audiences/groups (e.g. ROAS target vs. CPI target) and you can't expect to get the same quality of players for each one so the overall graph shouldn't be the same.


Looking back at tested channels to reinvestigate performance

[💎@09:28] A lot of new channels they test initially don't hold up to Facebook or Google campaigns. But when looking deeper (e.g. Day 90-180-365) you see that the curve is completely different and sometimes beats a LAL1%.


[💎@10:40] Try to make sure that when you test you don't just look at D7 ROAS. Test longer and split budget for 2-3 months or test/pause for 30-60 days and then restart the campaign. It's important to look back to assess again.


Beach bum try to make sure every 3 to 6 months to look back at everything they've done to see what's going on today. ROI might be low but they could notice a lot of "single depositors" and build with product or the source to create a campaign that has more impact.


Out of the tests paused only a fraction of them are restarted and they became staples in their portfolio.


Some sources look great at the beginning but when looking at the long term cohorts they might end up lagging behind.


Other benchmarks/metrics to look at

Players that bring good ROAS are typically those that spend a lot of time in the app. If you are able to make more users go deeper down the funnel you can expect higher ROI long term.


Retention is therefore a key metric as well.


[💎@16:15] Look at the user funnel to identify 2-3 events that indicates who are the users that like their games. Things that show commitment that you can find early on. For example: playing a "special table", joining a clan, etc.


Virality factor is another thing they look at: how many people they invite.


Shay would rather have a source that brings in a lot of highly engaged users with a high FTD count (time in the app) but at a lower ROI (D7-14) because he knows that in the long run that would generate more revenue for the company. They might also generate more positive reviews which can help as well.


Automation and impact for performance marketers

It enables you to focus on what marketing truly is. Now you can think about who you are targeting and how you are showing your message.

  1. Creatives have become huge: video, thumbnail, etc. You can now truly drill down on the creative part.
  2. [💎@21:30] You need to tell the algorithms what to optimize towards so you have to understand what the user journey beyond FTD. What events can I optimize for that will generate higher value?


Creative process

Really invest in creatives, both in the production and the process itself.

[💎@23:08] For the creative process they built a model: ideation → planning → production → learning and loops. Each one of them is its own process.

[💎@23:26] Involve product, CRM and the whole marketing staff to see what works throughout the app. Take everything people talk about and build different concepts out of brainstorming sessions that go into a production plan.


They have a few places where they test creatives to determine what they move forward with.


[💎@24:20] If you have something that is a killer concept, iterate on it (color scheme for example). It might lead to bigger increases than a new concept.

If you do not try these small iterative changes, you will not learn as much about your users.


  1. Always test new concepts
  2. Iterate on what works best


Testing creatives

Considerations:

  • How did that affect my CTR
  • How did that affect my CVR

But sometimes a longer look at things you realize that some creatives inspire different people and behaviors.


The notes from this resource are only available to premium members.

The detailed notes taken for a resource are an easy way to see the gems in context to get a better understanding. They also include any relevant visuals from the source.
↘ At this point, you know what to do ↙
Request Access

Beach bum games creates mobile games based on "old/nostalgic" card and board games (Backgammon, Spades, Rummy).

Creatives for "known/nostalgic" games

They have to think about who they are trying to approach :

  • Players who know what backgammon/spade is: very easy, easier to showcase why their games are great. It's more a matter of doing this better than competition.
  • Players who don't know the initial game: try to convey something different in the creative by showing what they can expect but also why it's different.


Good creatives for people that don't know the games

A good one would be "Learn how to play Backgammon in 30 seconds". It helps to get people to think they can learn the game fast, and then it's a matter of making sure that the onboarding experience is good enough for people that don't know the rules to enjoy it.


D7 ROAS and measuring performance

Try to make sure the money they invest in acquisition doesn't go to waste. The industry needs to react fast but in a lot of gaming companies the long term value is determined within 3-6-9-18 months so you can't see straight away and optimize directly.


They build generic models that predict LTV and ROAS curves. Example: need to be at 100% in 12 months → 50% in 6 months → 10% in 1 month → 5% day 7. They build that model and optimize towards it.


[💎@07:58] Not all channels are created equally and you can't optimize different channels the same way: audio campaign, video campaign, rewarded video campaign, Facebook campaign. So make sure you build different LTV/ROAS curves for channels that bring users of different kinds.


[💎@08:23] Even within campaigns you have different audiences/groups (e.g. ROAS target vs. CPI target) and you can't expect to get the same quality of players for each one so the overall graph shouldn't be the same.


Looking back at tested channels to reinvestigate performance

[💎@09:28] A lot of new channels they test initially don't hold up to Facebook or Google campaigns. But when looking deeper (e.g. Day 90-180-365) you see that the curve is completely different and sometimes beats a LAL1%.


[💎@10:40] Try to make sure that when you test you don't just look at D7 ROAS. Test longer and split budget for 2-3 months or test/pause for 30-60 days and then restart the campaign. It's important to look back to assess again.


Beach bum try to make sure every 3 to 6 months to look back at everything they've done to see what's going on today. ROI might be low but they could notice a lot of "single depositors" and build with product or the source to create a campaign that has more impact.


Out of the tests paused only a fraction of them are restarted and they became staples in their portfolio.


Some sources look great at the beginning but when looking at the long term cohorts they might end up lagging behind.


Other benchmarks/metrics to look at

Players that bring good ROAS are typically those that spend a lot of time in the app. If you are able to make more users go deeper down the funnel you can expect higher ROI long term.


Retention is therefore a key metric as well.


[💎@16:15] Look at the user funnel to identify 2-3 events that indicates who are the users that like their games. Things that show commitment that you can find early on. For example: playing a "special table", joining a clan, etc.


Virality factor is another thing they look at: how many people they invite.


Shay would rather have a source that brings in a lot of highly engaged users with a high FTD count (time in the app) but at a lower ROI (D7-14) because he knows that in the long run that would generate more revenue for the company. They might also generate more positive reviews which can help as well.


Automation and impact for performance marketers

It enables you to focus on what marketing truly is. Now you can think about who you are targeting and how you are showing your message.

  1. Creatives have become huge: video, thumbnail, etc. You can now truly drill down on the creative part.
  2. [💎@21:30] You need to tell the algorithms what to optimize towards so you have to understand what the user journey beyond FTD. What events can I optimize for that will generate higher value?


Creative process

Really invest in creatives, both in the production and the process itself.

[💎@23:08] For the creative process they built a model: ideation → planning → production → learning and loops. Each one of them is its own process.

[💎@23:26] Involve product, CRM and the whole marketing staff to see what works throughout the app. Take everything people talk about and build different concepts out of brainstorming sessions that go into a production plan.


They have a few places where they test creatives to determine what they move forward with.


[💎@24:20] If you have something that is a killer concept, iterate on it (color scheme for example). It might lead to bigger increases than a new concept.

If you do not try these small iterative changes, you will not learn as much about your users.


  1. Always test new concepts
  2. Iterate on what works best


Testing creatives

Considerations:

  • How did that affect my CTR
  • How did that affect my CVR

But sometimes a longer look at things you realize that some creatives inspire different people and behaviors.